“I Don’t Need Anyone”: Why Gay Men Struggle to Let Someone In

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.

[00:00:04] Speaker B: Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I'm your host, Michael DiIorio, and joining me today is Matt Lancitle.

[00:00:19] Speaker A: Hey, guys.

[00:00:21] Speaker B: Today we are talking about independent gay men, specifically looking at how to let people in, how to need others, how to ask for support. I chose this topic literally yesterday, as Matt knows, because I had three different client sessions this week where this pattern came up. One was a guy in his 30s whose boyfriend was moving in and he's having a lot of thoughts and feelings about letting his boyfriend move in. Another guy was. He's very well established, he's in his 70s.

He's now wanting, after years of being happily single, he's now wanting to let love in and let someone in. And he's having a really hard time with that. And then another guy is in his 50s and he's just got this underlying belief that I shouldn't be asking for help, even with coaching. He has a really hard time believing that he should be asking for help and needing coaching. So three different guys, three different scenarios. I figured, let's talk about it on this podcast because it's a lot of the same patterning here. So before we get into this, I want to give us some language around dependence and independence in that spectrum. In relationships, these words get used a lot, not always accurately. So I want to give everyone here a quick summary just to level set.

Okay, so think of it as a spectrum from dependence to independence. On the one hand, we have dependence, which is when you need someone to help you function. You rely on them for basic needs and emotional support. Most obvious example here, a child depends on their parents, right? Also, in adult relationships, it's okay to depend on your partner sometimes. Like let's say, for example, you. You break a leg or you're going through something in your life that's very emotional, it's okay to depend on them from time to time.

The extreme of that is codependence, or that's used a lot, which is when you lose yourself trying to keep the other person, you completely self abandon. You abandon yourself, your values, your needs just to keep that person in your life. And then you end up relying on them for your sense of worth and identity.

And your mental and emotional life is very much enmeshed in their actions, behavior. Everything they'd say and do has an impact on you, a deep impact on you, because, okay, that's on the Dependent side, we won't spend too much time there today.

On the other end is independence. Okay? There's just regular independence where you've just got your shit handled. You can rely on yourself, you're self sufficient, it's a healthy autonomy, okay? You don't rely on others, you're good.

The extreme of that is hyper independence. On this show we've called it lone wolf, which is almost like a refusal to rely on others at all. Like needing others elicits some kind of fear, usually a fear of vulnerability or if you're being let down, but it's motivated by fear and can lead to isolation. Okay?

And then there's that happy, healthy middle ground that we sometimes forget about, which is interdependence.

That is, I'm solid on my own and I can let myself in or I can let other people in without losing myself, right? So in a relationship, you want to think of this as two self sufficient people who choose to rely on each other and can balance their personal autonomy with mutual support when they need it. Okay? So I'm remaining my own person, but I'm very comfortable letting someone in and giving and receiving love and support from them.

Okay, Today's episode, we're not focusing on the codependent independent too, too much. We're really talking to the guys who land on that independent or hyper independent lone wolf kind of side.

To be honest, I, I see, I don't know if this is just me, but I see a lot of guys who don't just who say they're independent, but actually they overshoot it into that lone wolf or hyper independence. And so needing someone doesn't just feel uncomfortable, it's scary and almost feels wrong. And that's the, that's the situations I had this week with these three different clients, very different situations, but they were, it wasn't just uncomfortable, it was scary for them in all three of those situations to let someone in, literally letting someone move into their house, letting, letting them be loved all these different ways. So the question is, how can you go from hyper independence or independence to interdependence, that happy healthy medium, without letting yourself swing into dependence or losing yourself completely? Okay? Now even if you're not on that side of the spectrum, let's say you're more of a codependent, interdependent or dependent, right? You probably know someone who is independent or hyper independent, maybe even your partner, right? So this will be useful for you either way because it can help you in how you relate to those people in your life. Who maybe are more independent. All right, first, Matt, I think the question we have to answer is where are you on the spectrum?

[00:05:00] Speaker A: I was going to say I can't relate to this topic at all. Geez. So I've been both. I have a disorganized attachment, meaning I can go into anxiety or I can go into avoidance. And I understand both sides very well. I've spent many, many years on both sides of this coin. Different relationships bring out different sides. So if I were to get into a relationship with an avoidant guy, I would tight. I would tend to be more codependent, more anxious. If I would get into a relationship with a guy who was anxious, I would tend to become more avoidant and go into that lone wolf energy because it just feels too smothering. And so I understand. Yeah, I get it. I, I know what this is like. I've worked a lot on my secure attachment. So I would, I can speak. And this is what I'll speak to today is just my journey of developing more security in my attachment style and how that has led me to not necessarily need to swing into these extremes. Right. Of needing to avoid or. Or what's the word that you're using in this episode? The.

[00:05:56] Speaker B: The for secure.

[00:05:58] Speaker A: For the swinging over into the like lone wolf energy.

[00:06:01] Speaker B: Hyper independence.

[00:06:02] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So learning how to rely, that's. That's been my, my thing. Disorganized attachers have core wounding around betrayal. So people weren't reliable. People weren't there for them. They have trust wounding.

[00:06:17] Speaker B: Right.

[00:06:17] Speaker A: And that's my, that was my wounding. So I've had to learn how to rely on people again and how to also be able to cope with disappointment in my nervous system. Because guess what? People aren't always going to be reliable. And you can't always just abolish those people out of your life. Out of your life. Right. You have to learn how to, to navigate being reliable and also trusting that people can be reliable too.

[00:06:38] Speaker B: Yeah. And I don't think it's bad to be independent, but how do you know when you're just. I mean you're, you're a self sufficient, autonomous kind of guy. You can meet your own needs. There's nothing wrong with that. But how do you know for you when you're kind of swinging and kind of rolling now into the. That lone wolf for hyper independence, it's

[00:06:55] Speaker A: always got fear connected to it. So I'm afraid of something.

So I'm afraid of not belonging to a group of people or I'm afraid of being reject.

Yeah. There's always fear. And then that's the thing that puts me into the, the safest person is me. The only person I can rely on is me. The person who meets my needs the best is me. So I, and it's, it's, it will always be true. I'm sorry folks. The person who's going to meet my needs the best will always be me. But guess what? There's an asterisk there because that's not true for relational needs. Like, I can't, I can't. What are things I can't do for myself? I can't have sex with myself. I can kind of hug myself, but

[00:07:34] Speaker B: it doesn't, it's not the same. It's not the same.

[00:07:36] Speaker A: I can' co regulate with myself. Right. Like there's so many things that we need other people in our lives.

People make me laugh and you know, people, they need help from me. It makes me feel good.

[00:07:49] Speaker B: Right.

[00:07:50] Speaker A: So people, the mirror that we get from people is a huge part of our joy and our growth and these sorts of things. So.

[00:07:56] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. If you can't receive support, then your independence has a ceiling. Like it's, it's its fatal flaw. Right. The, the one of the gentlemen. Like I said, he's I think 70 or nearing 70. And he sounds very much like you. Like I've, he has, he's built a great life. I'm sure a lot of our listeners can relate to this.

I've built a great life.

I've done, you know, I've gotten everything I want by relying on me. So I'm obviously doing something right. And yet what has changed for him is he, he's imagining, you know, growing old and he's like, oh, first of all, physically, he, he does, he's at the point where he might need someone to like literally support him physically. And then also like, he just, he's like, oh, I kind of want to grow up with someone. And it's just showing up now at this phase of his life.

So, you know, it's hard. It's hard. After having all of these years being self reliant and not needing anyone and meeting your needs very happily to sudden be like, okay, maybe I do want this thing. Maybe I do want to.

[00:08:55] Speaker A: Yeah.

[00:08:55] Speaker B: Let someone in.

[00:08:57] Speaker A: Yeah. As, as gay little boys, I think we develop rich inner worlds and we realize that we're not like the other boys and we go inward and we learn how to become self reliant and hyper independent. We hold. Seek our secret tightly. Like there's a lot of this. And. And I just see this in our. In our community. There's just so much avoidant attachment in our community. Like, crazy. Like, more. More proportionate than any other group I've ever seen. Like, it's. It's highly.

No, no, it's definitely not.

[00:09:30] Speaker B: I'm thinking the same. Most of my clients are on that avoidant side or independent, vulnerable side, and I am as well. Right. Everything you just said very much applies to me. I love my freedom. I. I like to control everything. Like, all that. Now, what I've learned, though, is support does feel good if I allow it to be there, and intimacy does feel good if I get over that fear of vulnerability and connection does feel good, even though there are risks of going out and finding that connection.

Because otherwise, what I've learned, if I stay in my independence, I think of it as like a castle. Like, I'm in this beautiful castle. It's gorgeous. Got everything I need in this castle, but I'm all alone.

So it can turn into a quiet loneliness. Yes, my needs are met, except for the ones that are relational. And then for me as well, how I know I'm getting into that hyper independence is if I start getting resentful of, like, why don't people show up for me? Why is everyone so disappointing? Like, why can't anyone meet me where I'm at? And then I realized, wait a minute, how am I participating in this dynamic? And the answer is always, I'm participating in this dynamic. It's not them. It's a me thing.

[00:10:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. You built your castle, right?

[00:10:37] Speaker B: I'm the one who built the castle. Yeah.

[00:10:38] Speaker A: There's. Casey Musgraves has a song called Lonely Millionaire. And what we're talking about, it reminds me of that. It's about, like, someone who's got everything, but they have no one to share it with.

[00:10:47] Speaker B: Right.

[00:10:48] Speaker A: And, yeah, it's. I'm curious for you, like, what are the fears? Because all of this stuff we're talking about is motivated by fear. It's all driven by fear. Insecure attachment is driven by fear.

[00:10:57] Speaker B: Right.

[00:10:57] Speaker A: So what is the fear that is connected to this for you?

[00:11:02] Speaker B: I think. Well, first of all, I've done a lot of work on this. It's not as prevalent as it used to be, but it's still there like that. That automatic thinking is still there. And I sense it sometimes. I think, for me, it's A lot of it is. Is identity. Like, I really do like being an independent guy. Like, I love it. I love that I'm self reliant. I love that I've built this amazing life for myself. Yes, I've had support, of course, but like most of, most of it has been from me. And I love that. And so it's almost like I tell the story, well, if I let someone in, then does that identity go away? And that's what's kind of playing in the background. But the answer is no. That identity does not go away. It does not take away from the self reliance and the autonomy.

My ideal person, if it's in a relationship we're talking about, is someone who's equally autonomous and self reliant. And we come together and we say, let's do this amazing life together. And we both have our unique individual lives, whatever that entails. And we're going to bring them together and have this beautiful explosion of a life where we support each other and we do need each other and we can, I can take my foot off the gas sometimes and he can pick it up and then I can do the same for him sometimes. And that's what I've learned exists. I used to think that that doesn't exist. It's either this side over here where I'm on my own in my castle, or I'm like completely enmeshed in codependence. And that to me is like the worst thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:12:21] Speaker A: Anxious, anxiously attached people and avoidantly attached people notoriously attract each other. And if you think about the Venn diagram, you have kind of the me's, the two me bubbles, and then you have the we bubble in the middle. And avoidant attachers want to spend all their time in the me bubble. And anxious attachers want to spend all their time in the we bubble. So it's about learning. Secure attachment is about learning how to have all three bubbles coexisting so you can be autonomous and on your own in your me bubble. But there's going to always be the we bubble that crosses into both the me bubbles, right? And it's like, how can we create a shared relationship while also still honoring that we're separate people without like completely merging? Right. There has to be some form of individuation in, in the relationship, right?

[00:13:05] Speaker B: And the answer to that is boundaries, right? You don't lose yourself by needing someone. You lose yourself by having no boundaries. Yes, you could need someone and have boundaries and then you're, you're playing in that lovely thing you just, you just pictured for us like all three, but where there's no boundaries, then that's where the enmeshment shows up and that's where everything kind of goes away. So you do have to have those boundaries. And for someone who's anxiously attached, boundaries probably sound like a scary thing, right?

[00:13:30] Speaker A: Yeah.

[00:13:31] Speaker B: But you can have boundaries with a lot of love and a lot of personal respect.

[00:13:34] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, what, what are some boundaries that you. That are real, like, that you've. That you need to have in your life?

Yeah.

[00:13:45] Speaker B: If I'm in a relationship, then, you know, I. I will often tell them that, like, they are one of many pieces of my pie of life and sometimes they're not going to be in the top one or two or even three sometimes. And that just has to be okay. Me time. I remember when I was with Star, he's. He's an anxious attacher. We talked about this in the podcast we had. So there's not. But he wanted to spend all the time in the Wii and I love him. Of course, I love spending we time, but I also really needed me time, and so I had to advocate for that for myself in a way that was like, hey, listen, my time for me has literally nothing to do with you. It's just my time for me. And it'll actually make me show up more excited and more present and more willing to be with you. I'm like, I had to say, you want me to spend some alone time now with guardrails? I wasn't about to go away for like, you know, hours at a time on my own and not tell him anything. I would say something like, hey, and we were living together at the time.

I'm gonna go for a walk for an hour. I'm gonna listen to this podcast that I really wanna listen to for an hour for a while myself. I'm gonna come back and then we're gonna have our night together. Taking that time for myself, for me, it resets my battery. It charges me up. That's probably the biggest one. I just really do like. I do like my own company, genuinely.

[00:14:52] Speaker A: Yeah. So I spend so much time by myself, like it's crazy.

[00:14:56] Speaker B: Then we get good at it.

[00:14:57] Speaker A: Pretty. Pretty content.

Yeah. Like I would say, out of the time I spend by myself, 85% of that time, I'm very, very happy and content. But then 15%, I'm like, I want sex or I want some sort of physical connection. That's like the thing I crave the most, really. But with that also is the intimacy. Like the intimacy piece. Not just the act of sex, it's the it's all the stuff.

[00:15:19] Speaker B: Right.

[00:15:20] Speaker A: That's the thing that I miss, really, to be honest.

[00:15:23] Speaker B: What's the hardest part for you in moving from that lone wolf into letting someone in, into needing someone into intimacy?

[00:15:31] Speaker A: This is an area that I still struggle with. I have trust issues. And I've done a lot of the work around secure attachment, which is like, I've healed a lot of trauma. I've learned how to communicate my needs, my boundaries. But there's still something that I struggle with around.

Not give, like giving up control in trust. Like, trust is a complete act of surrender. You have to give up control. You can't. Right. And that's where I struggle still, because I've had. It's interesting, every time I've done that, I've been burned. Yes, truly, within my family system. And then every single freaking relationship I've had, I've been burned. I've chose guys who've cheated or who've, you know, done drugs behind my back, like all sorts of stuff. There's been so much deceit that I'm like, how can I trust after I've had so many, like, ruptures in this? So I just know that it's going to take. It's. I have to be cautious, for one. But then I also have to, like, surrender a bit. And I, as I meet someone. And that's why I love the relationship attachment model, because I now know that I'm not going to trust before I know.

[00:16:37] Speaker B: Right.

[00:16:37] Speaker A: So I have to have a no, a sense of no, which is like, it takes me time to get to know somebody and. And then I can start to practice trust. Right. And then rely on. And then commit, like, all these things. Like, it's progressive for me, so I've had to learn how to do that. But yeah, it's. It's not easy, man. Trust is. Is one of the harder things I'm in this life to learn trust. It's one of my core kind of

[00:17:00] Speaker B: karmic things that I'm learning hard, man.

[00:17:03] Speaker A: And trust for self, too. That's the big one.

[00:17:06] Speaker B: Yeah. I think for a lot of people who maybe are on the more dependent or if we want to call them anxious attachers, I think the misconception is that us folks on the other side don't want connection or intimacy or we just don't know how. But that's not it. It's exactly what you said. It's just this fear of, like, I want this too. I want intimacy and I want connection and I want the relationship. But I just don't trust what's going to happen when I open that door and I start to need it and then I start to like it, and then I give you my heart, and then what? Like, what are you going to do with it?

[00:17:37] Speaker A: Right, yeah, exactly.

[00:17:39] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:17:41] Speaker A: That's a big part for avoidant attachers is they have a lot of them carry defectiveness, wounding that there's something wrong or ultimately flawed about them. So moving into a connection and being fully seen for who they are, like warts and all, is usually the thing that. So if you think about what. What creates that is conflict. So an anxious attacher coming in and. And needing from them, and it's creating conflict, and it's like kind of rubbing up against their boundaries.

They run for the hills because they're like, they're gonna see me in conflict, which then they're gonna see all my warts. Right? So it's the. That attachment style is very, very much governed by, like, shame. Like, there's a lot of shame in that attachment style. So I get it. I understand that's like. To have that side of my attachment, but then I also have the anxious side in my attachment, which is a lot of fear and governed by, like, inconsistency from parenting, which has led to, like, abandonment, wounding. There's lots of abandonment wounding in that attachment style. So. Yeah.

[00:18:37] Speaker B: And yet we still want the intimacy. We still want the connection. We still want the relationship. We still maybe need the support. And so let's.

[00:18:44] Speaker A: Let's.

[00:18:45] Speaker B: Let's talk about that now. That's kind of the key that I want to get out of this episode is how does one. How have you specifically start moving toward that interdependence without freaking yourself out about moving too far or losing yourself or whatever your fear might be?

[00:18:59] Speaker A: I'm the kind of person that when I find somebody, I don't find people that I like very often. And when I do, I really like, I'm like, oh, this is so good. It becomes intoxicating. You know what I mean? Like, so for me, it's like I have to maintain one foot in my life and one foot in the relationship. I can't fully jump both feet into. Into the relationship. Like, I have to kind of really.

And it can be very. It can be. It's hard. Let's just be honest. Like, this is. It's. This is a hard area for me to navigate. But the best. My secret weapon is communication. So every single time I'm in a relationship with somebody, like, they know to A t. What is happening with me, Like, I do not hold anything back. And even if it's like, I'm terrified that you're gonna hurt me, like, all the things, like, they're gonna know. Because what ends up happening with people who have disorganized attachment is they confuse the shit out of their partners because they're. They're hot one day, cold the next. And I think so it. My. My gift to my partner is just communication. They have to know where I'm at constantly in the sense of, like, emotionally where I'm at. And then my work has been learning how to regulate the stuff that comes up. So, yeah, it's. It's all about emotional regulation and learning how to kind of be with. Be with the big feelings that come up. I think that's been a big part of my.

My work, for sure.

[00:20:21] Speaker B: Have you been in a situation where the fear is. I know you talked about trust and getting hurt and disappointing. And by the way, same for me, like, underline everything Matt said for me. But have you ever had a fear where it's actually going to overcorrect into becoming codependent in the. And you'll end up enmeshing this codependent thing that's scary to you. Like, is that one of your fears? Because that. That. That came up all. All three of my clients is. That was their fear. They didn't want to ever have to rely.

And when. When they say rely, what they meant was, like, all the time, forever.

[00:20:49] Speaker A: Yeah, that's the other side of my attachment style. So the. The avoidant side, for me is that feeling of being engulfed or consumed or smothered. I think that was. Yeah, that's a. That's a. That's a big one for me, too, because I've. I'm. I'm very independent as well, and I spend a lot of time by myself. So it's. It can feel very, like, almost invasive when somebody's like that, you know? So.

[00:21:17] Speaker B: Yeah, so the answer. I mean, the answer is, for anyone who can relate to that is. Is you have to find a name and play in the space of the. And right. There is secure attachment. There is interdependence. And so often we. We are on either side of the extreme, and we kind of forget that there's this beautiful middle ground, and we don't spend a lot of time there. Maybe because we haven't seen role models where that has been the case, maybe because we don't often see these play out in real life. I'm not sure. But in the cases that I've worked with clients and, and even for myself, I have to remember, like, I'm not going from, I'm not jumping from A to C. There's a B.

Yeah. That's what I'm shooting for. And in the B land and that nice Venn diagram middle ground, I don't get to lose anything. I compromise. Yes. But I'm not actually losing myself. I'm not losing my autonomy. I'm finding a man who can respect that and who gets that, maybe even has the same thing. And so we have to make room for there to have that middle ground. If, if you don't believe it exists, you're going to be terrified.

[00:22:19] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I agree. The middle ground also has to be able to be tolerated within the nervous system of the, of the person. Right. And I think that's a big part of the work is like pacing. And people often pace mentally. It's like, oh yeah, I can kind of grasp this. Right. And they're, they're mentally trying to think about pacing or they're visualizing. But then if the nervous system is being overridden and not honored that it's like, that's, that's the work for anything attachment related, anything. When it comes to pacing, the nervous system actually has to be prioritized and is part of guiding. So for somebody with an avoidant attachment style, they have low capacity for conflict, for interpersonal stuff.

[00:22:57] Speaker B: Right.

[00:22:57] Speaker A: So they need to learn how to develop more capacity in their nervous system to rely to, need to. Well, I would say primarily experience shame.

[00:23:07] Speaker B: Right.

[00:23:07] Speaker A: That's a big thing that comes up. So pacing is everything, right. In a relationship. And I actually think the most successful relationships are people that want to pace similarly, their nervous systems actually are coming together and they want the same things at the same pace. And I think a lot of times why avoidant and anxious attach each or attract each other is because they're karmic relationships. They need to learn from the, the contrast of themselves to be able to learn and grow. Right. So, but then when you find the person that you're like, there's a lot of compatibility. It's not just a karmic relationship. I think that's when the pacing, the nervous systems, they kind of match and they sync and they're like, yeah, we want the same things, we want to ebb and we want to flow.

[00:23:51] Speaker B: Right.

[00:23:51] Speaker A: And they're like space and connection and space and connection. So. And that's what I would say secure attachment looks like, you know?

[00:23:58] Speaker B: Yeah. And Finding and finding that you can handle both space and connection. You can handle autonomy, and you can handle intimacy. Sure, one might be a little bit harder for you. That's fine. That's not a problem. But it's not like you're. You're trying to become a totally different person. You're just expanding your range, expanding that capacity for whatever. One that maybe gives you a hard time, whether it's closeness or partness, learning to increase your tolerance in that space and recognizing that it's not all going to fall apart. And you can find security in either of those.

[00:24:30] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.

[00:24:31] Speaker B: I think for people who feel like it's too much or overwhelming, that's usually a sign where you're missing the middle ground. And that's why I feel like. It feels like too far grasp because you, you're, you're jumping from, like, I'm going to give away my whole life to this person. And that's not the case. That's not it. So if it does feel like too much for you, it feels overwhelming. Then you're probably trying to skip steps. And, and the important thing is to slow down and inch towards it with small stakes. I call them small, like kind of mini mini reps. Right?

[00:25:00] Speaker A: Totally.

[00:25:01] Speaker B: Do you have some examples of what has worked for you in these kinds of mini.

[00:25:07] Speaker A: Not off the top of my head. Nothing's really popping out, but I do, I do see the concept of what you're saying. And I think anybody that's with a couple that would be like someone's anxious and someone's avoidant. It's like you're needing to honor both nervous system. One wants all closeness, one wants all space. So it's like, how can we start to inch towards these things? It's like, it's very complex work to do that, like couples therapy with, with clients like that. But it's.

I, I like what you're saying. Like, you got to inch towards learning how to tolerate space and connection in your nervous system. And yeah, I have, I have a deep understanding of, like, if I have a partner who's anxious, I, I totally understand them. I have so much compassion for it. So I wouldn't often get triggered by that. Right. And I can also understand avoidance, but I tend to get more triggered by avoidance because I would be fearful avoidant, which is disorganized, leaning, anxious. So I can. I tend to get a little bit more triggered by avoidant men than I would by anxious men. Right.

Yeah.

[00:26:03] Speaker B: I'll give you an example with Star. He loves doing things for People I do too now. But he, he, he, he's very much a like let me do things for you kind of guy. And I'm a no thanks, I'll do everything myself, thank you very much.

Or at least I was.

And what, what we did, what I, what how I, how I kind of got over that was like the, the small stakes things were, would be like I would let him make me dinner. And that was shockingly. Sounds very easy for all you out there. Maybe for me, like I had such a hard time with that. And so that was a small way that I practiced the discomfort of letting someone do something for me. Another thing was at the beginning of our week, we used to do a check ins, check ins and how we're doing. And I would ask him for something every week and I would, I would decide what it was because what I didn't like with him before is like he would just do things without kind of my permission, without asking me. I'm like, I don't want you to do that for me. So what we landed on was like, okay, listen, you want to do things for me, but I want you to do things that I want you to do, not things that I don't need to do because you're just getting in the way. So I would name one thing each, each week that he could do for me and I would like let go of it. Right. That was again hard for me. But these are, these are not too difficult. Like they're uncomfortable, but they're not impossible. If you're someone like, like me, in that case, let your partner do things for you. Let them show up for you. But if you want to choose how that, like what's the best way for you to do that, then then that can be a compromise, right?

[00:27:24] Speaker A: Yeah. That's brilliant. I love it. Because there also has to be communication around that. So you're talking and then you're also in training your nervous system to tolerate things that make you uncomfortable.

[00:27:34] Speaker B: Right.

[00:27:34] Speaker A: And those are really, those are, that's everything when it comes to, to developing secure attachment. Communicate and learn how to tolerate in your nervous system the things that, that activate.

[00:27:43] Speaker B: Right.

[00:27:43] Speaker A: So you're doing both. That's good.

[00:27:45] Speaker B: Because if you can't tolerate small support, you can't tell. You won't be able to tolerate big support. And the goal is again, that's stepping that stepping stone.

[00:27:53] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So your, your client that was feeling like, okay, this person's moving in my home, right? That's a big one. Like I have, that's a huge step for me.

And actually, to be honest, I probably wouldn't want someone moving into my home. I would say, let's move into a home together because there's something about them moving into my space that it would feel like. It's not a shared space.

So I think that would be a strategy that I would use. Like, let's both whether sell our homes or something and move into a shared space. But it's a big step, man. Like having someone. And then my biggest thing is sharing a bed with somebody because I'm a light sleeper, and I don't do well with that.

So I find. But I do want that. I want to share a bedroom with my partner. That's what I want. Right. So no snorers. They're blacklisted from dating. I can't date people who snore.

[00:28:42] Speaker B: I think that's a lot of people.

That might be a lot, but in. In your case. And same with. With my client, like, what. What I reminded him is that you already have a lot of examples where this was working in small ways. Right. Like if you spend a night together or you spend a weekend together, or you go on vacation, you're in a hotel together. I know it's not the same, but they're like little mini experiments that you could use that can help. Say, okay, well, if that.

I managed a night together, and then we managed, you know, a week together, and then we managed this together, and then I. He was over at my house for a weekend here. Like, these are the small little increments that build up to it. I know it's not the same, but also, you have to expect discomfort. It's hard. It's meant to be hard. And so I want everyone out there to just accept that you're signing up for the hard. You're signing up for the growth that comes from this.

[00:29:28] Speaker A: It's not.

[00:29:28] Speaker B: It's not supposed to feel easy. And I don't think it ever gets to a point where you're like, yeah, great, this is easy, because then maybe it's not growth. In that. In that case.

[00:29:36] Speaker A: Yeah. How long have your partner and their part. Your. Your client and their partner been together?

[00:29:42] Speaker B: I'm pretty sure it's been a year or two.

[00:29:44] Speaker A: Okay.

[00:29:45] Speaker B: Yeah.

[00:29:45] Speaker A: So it's good milestone time for that too.

[00:29:47] Speaker B: Yeah. And they're moving in. Yeah. And he's freaking out. Freaking out.

[00:29:51] Speaker A: Blame him.

[00:29:52] Speaker B: Yeah. For sure. Yeah. But just notice how all the different ways in my examples, it was the same pattern in three very different scenarios. And so I Do think that this is prevalent with gay men? I don't want to need people. I don't want to rely on people.

[00:30:05] Speaker A: Yeah.

[00:30:05] Speaker B: I don't want to ask for help. Yeah.

[00:30:08] Speaker A: And sometimes, like, it's not. We don't have to pathologize. Pathologize it as much. It can be like, maybe. Maybe it's about redirecting awareness to the benefit. Like, what. What's all the beauty that's going to come from living with this person? Right. Instead of. Sometimes our brains can go to, like, you know, oh, my God, my. My autonomous, where my independence is gonna be taken away. I'm gonna this. And we start focusing on all those things when it's like, no, there's a lot of beauty that can come out of living with somebody, and you get to know them in a very different and intimate way. And there's, you know, in this. In this economic climate, you get to share split bills. Like, that's kind of nice.

[00:30:43] Speaker B: That would be really nice. Talking about your instances where you've had to overcome that discomfort. How do you kind of, like, justify it or rationalize it in yourself when you're. When you're physically feeling it in your nervous system? Like, how do you calm yourself down in those moments where you start to feel anxious about it, about needing people?

[00:31:01] Speaker A: I've been doing a lot of, like, somatic work lately, and just, like, working with my body, like, holding different postures, I've been doing, like, ohms. Like, ohms. I have a vibration plate that I shake on. Like, I'm learning how to connect with my body in a completely new way. So I'm like. I'm almost becoming like, a master emotional processor. It's, like, really cool because I've sucked at this my whole life because I've had so much trauma in my nervous system that I've, like. Like, haven't been able to actually regulate. And it's a very scary feeling not being able to regulate emotion.

So, yeah, I would say I need to get out of my mind. My mind loops and I'm a crazy ruminator, and I think very deeply into things, and that doesn't help me on the emotional plane. I need to actually breathe into it, and I need to move into my body and I need to let my body kind of discharge. So for something like that, there's a fear, right? Fear of needing somebody. They're going to disappoint me like that. Like, I shake, shake out my body, right? And.

And then I talk. I talk about it. I talk about my Fears with whether it's my therapist or with the person that I. That, you know, that's not a good day. That's not a good day, folks. On a bad day, I, like, internalize it. I ruminate. I lose sleep over it. Like, come on, let's be honest here. I'm not. I'm not perfect. So of course, with. With this stuff as well.

[00:32:19] Speaker B: So, yeah, that fear of disappointment is probably my. My number one because I. I have yet to not be disappointed.

So what I've done, though, is it's kind of like a. You know, I. I talk about this a lot. Like, I'm kind of give myself some tough love, and I'm like, yeah, and it's still worth it.

People are allowed to disappoint me that I'm not. They're going to disappoint me from time to time, and I'm going to disappoint them, I'm sure.

And it's still worth all of the beauty and love and amazingness that's going to come from letting them in. Like, it's. That pile of what I'm getting is still bigger than. Than the disappointment.

And it doesn't. Like you said, it doesn't. I don't always remind myself of that. It doesn't always work.

But overall, especially when it's after a breakup, like, after a breakup, it takes a long time for me to want to get back on that horse. I'm like, I'm done with horses. This is over. And then eventually, yeah, okay, fine, maybe I want to get back on course.

But, yeah, people are going to disappoint you. And, like, also, I will withstand it and I will hold myself through it, and I will get support from other people maybe, and that'll be okay. Like, I will survive the disappointment if that happens. And it's still worth the work of letting someone in.

[00:33:28] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I like that. My friend always reflects to me because she knows about all my dating. I tell her pretty much everything. She's one of the people that I that knows. And she says to me all the time, she's like, man, she's like, I am so impressed by you that she's like, you've been hurt so many times. And she's like, you still continue to put yourself out there because there's a lot of people on this planet that they. They're hurt and they're like, nope, nope. And they just kind of like, go behind their armor. And I'm like, I continue to wear my heart on my sleeve.

I always will because I don't know any other way. And I will continue to just move into connection because I do know that my connections are growth driven. Like everything that I go through, it's helping me grow and evolve so I can finally land in with that one guy that is going to eventually come. So if I give up and go behind my armor, guess what I'm missing out on?

All the yumminess that's, that's out there for me. Trust me, it's coming and I know it's. I'm. I've never lose lost faith and I will not lose faith that there's a guy out there for me that I'm going to fall in love with and spend the rest of my days with. So that's my motivation behind all the work I do.

[00:34:32] Speaker B: Beautiful, beautiful last words.

All right, thank you, Matt for joining us on this. A really personal topic for both of us.

[00:34:41] Speaker A: Curiosity.

[00:34:43] Speaker B: Yeah, a lot of, a lot of gay men are emotionally independent and I think a lot of people are going to resonate with us or you know, someone who is.

But relationally I think we can be a little bit inexperienced. So I'm hoping this episode helped with that because independence is not a bad thing. It will take you very far in life. It'll take a Matt and I very far in our lives. But at some point it stops being a strength and starts being a bit of a ceiling.

And so the next level is not to be fully codependent, but it's simply just how to stay with yourself while you let someone else in. It's that beautiful and balance that we need to aim for. That's what I'm hoping you guys all out there feel a little bit more inspired to work towards.

[00:35:21] Speaker A: I love that.

[00:35:22] Speaker B: Okay, reminder, if you're new here, please subscribe to the channel on YouTube. And if you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, please subscribe and leave us a review which will help us get into the ears of people who need us and that this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you enjoy what we're creating, you can support our community by making a donation to the show, using the link in the show notes or tapping on that thanks button on YouTube. Also, if you're listening to us on Apple, you can subscribe to get early access to our podcasts in a few weeks before they are released. All of your support helps us to continue making content and supporting the community. So we thank you in advance and we'll see you next time.

[00:36:00] Speaker A: Bye Bye.