The Body Count Dilemma: Why Gay Men Can’t Win

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.

[00:00:06] Speaker B: Welcome to Gaming Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective.

I'm your host, Michael DiIorio, and joining me today is Matt Lansdel.

[00:00:21] Speaker A: Hey, guys.

[00:00:22] Speaker B: Hey. We want to talk about a beef that I have with gay culture, which is this fixation on body count where we either glorify the guy with endless notches on the bedpost or we quietly judge him or slut shame him. And then we do the same thing to the guy who hasn't slept with many people or doesn't have much sexual experience at all. So it feels like gay men are constantly stuck between these two extremes, neither of which are empowering.

On the one side of that extreme is what I call purity culture. Uh, we've done episodes on this. It implies that sex, desire, and pleasure are shameful. They're things to be ashamed of that comes from social conditioning culture. Religion is a big perpetrator of purity culture.

And then on the other side, we have performance culture, which implies that your worth and value and desirability as a man, as a gay man, comes from sexual experience.

And that is reinforced in our social conditioning in the media. Social media, porn, everything that we see around masculinity, status, and desirability. Both of them suck, in my opinion. They're both bs and they actually disconnect us from what is true, what is real, our genuine, authentic desire. Both of these are actually rooted in shame, not choice. And what they do is they turn this wonderful thing, sex, into a measure of worth instead of it being something that is intimate and enjoyable, which is. Which it is. So both purity culture and performance culture are about control and conditioning, not empowerment. And so that's what I want to talk about today here with you, Matt. It's. It's a beef I have, so forgive me if I get spicy about it, but I think it's really important that we have this conversation. So I think the first thing I want to start off with is looking at, like, what are. Let's. Let's name them. What are some of the stories people tell? Or what we kind of hear about body count, the beliefs that we hold. So there's either the people that have a high body count and then the people that have a low. And I'm using air quotes because do those numbers even mean.

So, Matt, I'll hand it over to you. What are your thoughts?

[00:02:22] Speaker A: To be honest, I didn't even know this term.

[00:02:24] Speaker B: Okay.

[00:02:25] Speaker A: Like, until maybe like, three weeks ago when somebody. I can't remember where I heard it, but I was like, body count. What does that mean? It sounds like murder or something like that.

But, yes, I didn't realize that. So, yeah, I, like, I think it's a. It's a. For me, what I do is I have actually a list in my phone of all the guys that I've ever been intimate with.

And I do it not out of a way to be like, you know, show it off or anything, because I don't tell anybody. I don't even tell anybody the number that I have. But for me, it's like, I want to have a recollection of these experiences. Right. And a lot of them were in my 20s, and I had to really dig because I was either intoxicated or something. So, for me, yeah, the term doesn't really.

It doesn't really sit for me. I guess I. I can understand how people would use it as a currency to worth.

[00:03:11] Speaker B: Right.

[00:03:11] Speaker A: And tell all the people that they've had sex with and. And things like that and also understand the other side of it. Right. And I would say I probably, I sit somewhere in the middle because I.

I am a little exhausted of our culture being so fixated on sex and the compulsivity of sex in our culture and the lack of capacity to move into other domains. And I've. I've expressed that since day one on this podcast. So that's probably my biggest beef. But, yeah, I don't know. It's not something that comes across, like, even in my coaching counseling. Like, it's not something that comes across my. My desk really, at all. So it's. This is kind of my first time talking about it.

[00:03:47] Speaker B: Interesting.

[00:03:48] Speaker A: Well, share your beef first, and then it'll stimulate some juices for me.

[00:03:52] Speaker B: Sure, sure. Well, the beef is just sad. It's like, we can't win. As I said, it becomes. It's either this thing that you're ashamed for having too much of or ashamed for not having enough ovens. Like, well, what? Like, what gives? Why can't I just be me and enjoy what I enjoy without getting shamed at all? And that's what I'm saying. We're kind of stuck between these two dichotomies that don't serve us. So some of the things that I hear out on the street with respect to body count or, you know, if it's low, again, that's such a loaded term that doesn't mean anything if it's, you know, what. What some might Consider low. Then, you know, you might get branded as, oh, he's uptight or repressed or prudish or like. Like, they kind of look down on that. And then yet, if it's high, if there's a lot, if you have a high body count, again, whatever that means, then it's like slut shaming. And this person's empty and he's damaged and he's addicted and he has standards or he's dirty. Yeah. So those are the two ends. And then, like, neither of these things are necessarily true and has nothing to do with numbers.

[00:04:49] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It kind of just makes me think, like, it's not really anybody's business.

[00:04:54] Speaker B: Yeah.

[00:04:55] Speaker A: Do you know what I mean? Like, I guess there is certain contexts where it might become somebody's business, where it's like, you know, if I'm getting involved with somebody sexually, for example, and they have a high body count, and I want to make sure that they're taking care of their sexual health. Right. Like, those sorts of things are important because. And maybe not even just sexual health, but like, colds and flus and these sorts of things. Because, you know, people that are hooking up a lot are carriers of colds and flus, in my opinion. And when I was in hookup culture, I was always sick. I always had some sort of bug in my throat or something. Right.

But at the end of the day, I don't think it's anybody's business. Like, go on, live your life. And if you want to have a lot of sex, have a lot of sex if it feels good for you, and if you're somebody that wants to be on the far other side of the spectrum and wait till you're married, married or whatever these sorts of things might be. And maybe you've never had gay sex before, it's like, that's okay, too, you know?

[00:05:46] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's just it. It's. It's, to me, both of these things. Purity culture and performance culture, though they sound very different than they are, they're actually part of the same control system. And shame is at the core of that, if you really wanted to, like, get technical about it. But it's about control. It's about trying to control behavior by. It's all about judgment. Like this judgment that comes from absolutely nothing. And they both reinforce shame. They both come from shame, and they both reinforce shame.

[00:06:14] Speaker A: Yeah.

[00:06:14] Speaker B: It disconnects us from our authenticity, from our bodies, from what we truly want. Like, I love the way you added that. Like, if that feels good for you. That, that's, that's ultimately it is. If you subtract the purity culture and performance culture from your sex life and intimate intimacy, then you're just left with, okay, well, what do I want? Regardless of what people might think or regardless of what social conditioning has taught me.

[00:06:36] Speaker A: Yeah.

[00:06:36] Speaker B: That is where the true. I think empowerment is.

[00:06:40] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.

I'm curious. Let's explore, like, why somebody would shame someone from the other side. So who are the people that are shaming the people that are having a lot of sex, do you think? And why are they doing it?

[00:06:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I think a lot of it that I've seen comes from religious backgrounds. So, I mean, I grew up Catholic, so I know no sex for married and certainly no sex with same sex, that's for sure.

So a lot of it comes from a bit like purity culture. We did an episode on purity culture, myself and John Carl Lewis a while back and we talked about that where, where this comes from. So I think that's, that's a bit of it is social conditioning and like, okay, sex is.

Shouldn't. You shouldn't have pleasure. Sex is not for pleasure. Sex is only for, you know, reproduction. Reproduction? Yeah.

[00:07:24] Speaker A: Just gay men.

[00:07:25] Speaker B: Yeah, girl, that's not working. My uterus is not.

[00:07:27] Speaker A: We're trying and it just, it won't work.

[00:07:30] Speaker B: It don't take.

So I think that's, that's a big piece of it. But then the other side of it is I think maybe people who are maybe secretly jealous and maybe they, they want to have that freedom and they want to have that empowerment and they want to experience these things, but maybe they can't or they don't let themselves, or, or, or they've been taught that it's a sin and they're going to go to hell. So they don't. And they see other folks doing it without a care in the effing world and they secretly want it and so they shame it.

[00:07:58] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. I was going to say the same thing. It's a projection of shame. So we carry these ideologies that gay sex is disgusting or wrong. And often those ideologies don't sit at the surface, they sit in the subconscious. So when we see someone else expressing those desires and getting those needs met, and we want to have that and we want to get those needs met, but we have so much shame that's blocking us from, from accessing that. Right. That can definitely be a barrier. So, yeah, projection of shame.

[00:08:23] Speaker B: Shame is just.

[00:08:24] Speaker A: Oh, it's crazy. In every conversation. It always comes back to that. For us as gay men, shame is just such a beast.

[00:08:29] Speaker B: Yeah, let's do the other side. So people who judge people for not, like, being prudish and not. Not having enough sex or whatever, that sounds like what. Where that comes from?

[00:08:41] Speaker A: Well, again, I think it's another projection. So if you look at people that have used sex to soothe. Right. Their nervous system and it's become compulsive for them, they might look at somebody who has control over their body and their desires and they might project like, O, wish that I was able to. Whatever, I don't know, relate in deeper ways or, or things like that. But it probably could also bring up their own shame that they have around being, whatever, hypersexual or, or a slut. And I use air quotes when, when I say that maybe they have shame secretly because they still have some of that religious conditioning or that conditioning around purity culture. So they see someone exhibiting purity culture and they're like, oh, right, like I'm gonna shame you and make you feel shitty for that. Because it's a. So it's always a projection. There's always some form of projection, uncon, Conscious projection happening.

[00:09:29] Speaker B: And here we are as gay men, stuck in, Stuck in the middle. This is, this is the beef I have. So every time I hear this one way or another, not high or low, but anytime I hear this, this fixation about body count, I just wish we didn't, like. I just wish we just didn't. Not didn't talk about it because I think talking about it in a, in a positive, healthy way is fine and like in a. In a data sense, but like, it doesn't mean anything. It's just a story. And that story is riddled with conditioning and shame. Maybe that's a question for our listeners out there, is when you hear of people who maybe have a lot of sex for what is, you know, normal for your mindset or little. What is the story you tell yourself about them? Are they dirty and gross and easy or are they prudish and repressed and something's wrong with them? Like, what. What is that story you tell? There should be. It should be a very neutral story. Like, okay, it's just a number. Has nothing to do with anything.

[00:10:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious for you, in a relationship, if you were to meet a guy and you had known that he had been with so many guys prior to, would that have any impact on you?

[00:10:26] Speaker B: No, not at all.

[00:10:27] Speaker A: Okay.

[00:10:28] Speaker B: And. Well, if they, if they hadn't, yeah, it wouldn't impact me. At all. I mean, we've had a lot, I think, partners over the years.

So, I mean, I would never be one to judge one way or another, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How about you?

[00:10:42] Speaker A: You know, it might be different because you live in a very big city where it's like, it's still, they're still going to have crossover. But in a city like Calgary. Right. Two million people. There's.

The gay community is not as large. So I do think if my partner had slept with all these people and a lot of them were my friends, like, there's just that, that, I don't know, it kind of just makes me feel a little bit like.

Right. Like, so that would be my only issue. Like, for me, it wouldn't be like, oh, you're dirty. Or it wouldn't be a shaming thing. It would be like a. You know, because I'm, I'm. I would say I'm more monogamous. I'm demisexual. So there's this idea of, like, it's, it's special. It's very sacred for me to share my body with somebody. And like, so I would want somebody that kind of has those same values. And I feel like, yeah, and that's. I don't think it's a moral thing for me. It feels like. Yeah, it's just like, it's special. I don't know. Like, I don't, I don't just give it out like, easily. Like, I would really need to like, know somebody and know that they're right. And this, that's what makes me demisexual. Right.

So I do think that I would want to. I would want to date another demisexual. I think if I, if I could, if I had a choice, I would want someone that shares those same values. Like they're not interested in hookups and, and things like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:11:54] Speaker B: And I love that you just demonstrated for everyone, like, how well you know yourself and that your, your decision, your desire comes from who you are, your core values. It does not come from any kind of conditioning about what you should or shouldn't do. It's just the way you said that was very much, this is who I am and this is what I want. And you don't have to justify that to anyone. That's just what it is.

[00:12:15] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.

[00:12:15] Speaker B: And that's, that's for everyone out there. That's. That's how I think you should approach your desires and sexuality. And yeah, not even look at the number, really.

[00:12:25] Speaker A: Yeah. I agree. Emotional maturity has taught me how to stay in my own lane. That's it. Right. Like, I don't. I don't look at somebody else and. And judge their experience. And unless it impacts me, if it doesn't impact me, then. Right. And when. Why I talk so much about sexual compulsivity and, like, because that does impact me, right? Like, I'm not in a relationship. I'm in the dating po, Right? So I'm impacted by people's sexual compulsivity and the hypersexuality in the culture. Because as a demisexual man, I want something more. Right. So as soon as I get into a relationship, then I'll probably stop talking about that topic because it doesn't impact me anymore. Right. So I do think that if we can look at, you know, that there is impact. I am impacted by this, then sure, talk about it. But if you're not impacted by it, then just stay in your own lane.

[00:13:10] Speaker B: Right.

[00:13:10] Speaker A: And focus on your own. On your own stuff.

[00:13:13] Speaker B: Yeah. I think that that's where. Where we're different is I am not a demisexual. Like, I don't need to have that. I don't need to have that emotion. I love that emotional passion, but I don't need to have it to enjoy sex and seek sex. I will say, for me, I'm very. It's fluid. Like, I'm sure all of our listeners out there, there's times where you can have a very high libido and be very sexually charged in one particular season of your life, or even just days and weeks. And then other times it just. It's offline. And. And I've noticed that especially as I've gotten older, like, if it's offline, I don't make it mean anything. I'm like, oh, my God, what's wrong with me? Like, yeah, I'm not horny or I'm not. I'm not having as much sex as I used to.

[00:13:48] Speaker A: Yeah.

[00:13:48] Speaker B: It's like, okay, well, this just isn't something that is similar to what you have said. It's just not something that I'm focused on right now and doesn't need to be. There's nothing. Nothing has gone wrong because suddenly I'm not doing the same things I used to do. And again, not making it mean anything now. I do think it's worth asking the question, why is this? Why is this? And the answer for me is always I'm focused on other things. Other priorities have taken over, and that just goes to the back of the line. And that's okay. But I think it is worth asking the question, where is this coming from?

[00:14:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

Yeah, it's interesting. My libido is governed by connection. That's what makes me demisexual. So if I don't have connection, I don't have a libido. It's really interesting.

[00:14:26] Speaker B: When I. When I travel, I have moments where I'm like, okay, I know that this is going. Like, I kind of have intentions. Like, if my. If my body agrees, this is going to be a place where a week or two that I purposefully, intentionally want to go have fun and seek out these experience, whether it's dates or just sex or just. Just fun in general.

And then there's times where I. I don't. And that's okay too. And I focus more on. I want to just meet. Like, I kind of go into that demisexual mode. I wouldn't say I'm always a demisexual, because I'm not. But there are certainly times where I much rather crave an emotional connection than a sexual one. And again, I'll just be like, okay, I know what I want. And then I'm gonna act accordingly, Match my needs in this moment with my actions. But I think people lack sometimes that awareness to ask themselves genuinely, like, what am I most seeking right now? Am I needing just a fun.

Great. That's what you need. If you like. Sometimes I just want to cuddle. I've talked about this before. Gone on Grindr. I've talked on Grind. I'm like, listen, I don't want to hook up. I would love it if you came over and we cuddled and watched a movie or something.

[00:15:27] Speaker A: That's nice.

[00:15:28] Speaker B: Like, I'm not just saying that. Like, I actually. Yeah.

[00:15:30] Speaker A: Not just Netflix and chill. Like, really Netflix and chill.

[00:15:34] Speaker B: What. What do you think you could. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead.

[00:15:36] Speaker A: I was gonna say when. When cuddling turns into sex, that's the best, right? And that's how I would always start intimacy. I would never. Because that's why I don't do hookups. So I would be like, yeah, let's have a date. Have it. Have a dinner, go for a walk, something. And then it would. The next thing would be cuddling, and my nervous system syncopates to theirs, right? And then I can, like, Then maybe it's a kiss and that. Right. So it's a gradual progression into sex. And I think for me, that works really well. Right. And it's like, there's also the beautiful thing about that. Is the sexual tension gets to build in me, in my nervous system. And then when it. When it's finally happening, it's like, oh, my God. It's amazing, right?

[00:16:09] Speaker B: Yeah. One thing that we talked about, heated rivalry a couple episodes ago, and one thing that I can't stand, I call that, like, locker room bravado culture of, like, we hear, like, we hear straight. This happens in, like, the straight worlds where, like, they talk about girls. They. Oh, yeah. Yet it. We do the same in the gay world.

And I'm like, this is a toxic kind of masculinity type of ick that I get.

[00:16:33] Speaker A: Yeah.

[00:16:34] Speaker B: Like, these guys. Oh, yeah. I. All these people. And this is my load count, and this is my body count. And I'm like, we're. No. That. This is the same. It was just. With a. It was just the same sex instead of a different sex. And that really. That's another thing that really grates me because it means absolutely nothing. I'm like, are we putting these people on a pedestal? Why? What again? What are you making that mean about them? That they are better, that they are more masculine, that they're more desirable, that they're hotter? Because trust, they're not.

[00:17:00] Speaker A: Yeah. And. Or objectifying people. Right. Because it's like. It's just a body. Like, you know, it's just a warm hole that I used to, you know, satisfy my means or whatever. It's like. So. Yeah, I think it's.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:17:14] Speaker B: I think a lot of guys find their worth in that because they say, oh, because this many people. I mean, I'm saying these guys. But I used to do this. Okay, so I'm speaking from experience here, but it used to be a fact of. I didn't believe myself lovable, desirable, worthy, or hot until all these people. Me. And now I'm like, yeah, okay, well, then I must be. Because, you know, 14 people, me. So that must mean that I'm hot. But, like, that does not. That's not what that means at all. It just means that 14 people. You. That's it.

[00:17:43] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. I'm trying to, like, go back because I would have to go back into my. Probably my, like, early to mid-20s. And I think maybe I was a bit like that. But I've so. I feel so far removed from that now that it's hard for me to relate to that mentality because I. I don't use my body as, like, a currency anymore. Like, I've really learned how to move away from that. And I Think that also just maybe comes with age too, like, and maturity and, and things like that, but maybe not necessarily. I think that comes with growth, personal growth and.

[00:18:14] Speaker B: Yeah, Yeah. I run a group, as you know, called sexual empowerment. 101 four years now.

And that's one of the things that we talk about and one of the, one of the things that I talk about when I'm marketing this group actively in like Instagram is that people do this a lot and they mistake sexual empowerment with like, again, the number of partners you have or the number of experience you have. And that's not. It has nothing to do with that. You, you can be sexually empowered and sex positive even and have had very little or few or none partner.

[00:18:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

[00:18:45] Speaker B: Or many. And again, you have to completely decouple this number from that term. Sex. Sexual empowerment.

[00:18:52] Speaker A: Exactly.

[00:18:53] Speaker B: Or sex positivity.

So let's talk about that a bit. Let's talk about what that really is. If it's not a number, then what is it to you?

[00:19:00] Speaker A: Sexual empowerment. I think for me, sexual empowerment is about pleasure. It's pleasure based. Right. Not performance based. So there's a focus on being present in the moment and experiencing pleasure. And I think it's. It's sexual authenticity just being authentic and owning desire.

[00:19:18] Speaker B: Right.

[00:19:19] Speaker A: And without shame. So I would say sexual impairment is the absence of shame and being fully in our body and aligned to what we want.

Truly what we want. Nailed it.

[00:19:31] Speaker B: Passing grade format.

Yeah, it's, it's. I would say it's the absence of any moral. Moral hierarchy in what, one way or another.

Yeah. So, yeah, the absence of shame for sure. And it's not a pressure to want more for any reason, but it's no shame for wanting less either.

[00:19:48] Speaker A: Yeah.

[00:19:48] Speaker B: And it's this beautiful space where. Yeah, you said it really well. It just comes from a very authentic place. And I will add one more thing. It's being informed and educated because if you're going to be sexually active, if you choose to be sexually active.

Sex positivity and sexual empowerment. I do an entire week on this. Is sex education, sexual health, substances. You got to know all of it. And the sex education I learned in Catholic school was abysmal at the time. I don't know what they're doing these days, but we certainly did not learn about same sex sex. And we certainly did not learn about substances which, let's be real, a lot of folks in the gay world or in the world in general, mix substances and sex. And so my point here is you have to be Educated and informed. And you can't bury your head in the sand about what's going on in the world.

[00:20:34] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I would also maybe add to intention.

Intention behind why you're having sex. Because I think sometimes we're. We're cognitively having sex from our minds. Like, oh, he's hot. We. I have to have sex, and we're disconnected from our bodies.

[00:20:47] Speaker B: Right.

[00:20:47] Speaker A: Or we're doing it for performance, or we're doing it for currency, or we're doing it for whatever. So understanding the intention of why you're doing it can lead to empowerment as well.

[00:20:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Another one is we're. This is great, because you keep reminding me. Another one is. Is integrating that part of you as a. As a beautiful, wonderful, welcome part of you. Not like, oh, my gosh, this. I have to, like, compartmentalize my sexual self. I think a lot of gay guys do this because, you know, if they're in the closet or if you're.

If you have that internalized shame around your same sex desire. We have our lives. And then we have, like, this, which is over here in the corner in the very back that we don't talk about. We do in secret in the corner. And we don't. We don't.

But that integration, I think, is really important, even just within yourself and your own identity, to say, yeah, I have a part of me that is interested in pleasure and desire and sex and sexuality and what that looks like.

[00:21:42] Speaker A: Yeah.

Yeah, I like that.

I love talking about desire.

[00:21:47] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:49] Speaker A: Well, that's our next episode.

[00:21:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I was gonna say we're doing another episode.

[00:21:51] Speaker A: Authenticity, owning your desires. Coming up next week.

[00:21:56] Speaker B: Next week. Right. And this is the stuff that I want to say. We do unpack in places like our connection circles, and I think the kind of conversation that Matt and I are having here in our next week are really important because what I hope this is modeling for our listeners and viewers out there is like, two grown men who enjoy sex who can have sex and talk about it without notice. How we're not sexualizing each other. Yeah. Really important. I think we do that a lot. And so getting into these spaces really does create and contribute to that sex positivity and sexual empowerment. So we do that in our connection circles. I'll be doing. I don't know when this airs. I'll be doing one about your relationship to porn coming up. I don't know when this airs, but hopefully it's still available. And beyond that, I am running my sexual empowerment group again in the spring. Like, I Said it's once a year. I run it in the spring only and we start in April. So I'll put the. I'll put all the details in the show notes. I don't need to talk about it here, but if you guys are listening to this and you're interested in these kinds of conversations, we'll be running that in April.

[00:22:54] Speaker A: Cool. Yeah.

[00:22:55] Speaker B: Yeah.

[00:22:55] Speaker A: And then my connection circle this month. Is sexual empowerment perfect or, sorry, sexual authenticity. Owning your desires. Learning how to own your. What you desire.

[00:23:05] Speaker B: Yeah.

[00:23:05] Speaker A: Come and join us and have these conversations.

[00:23:07] Speaker B: Yeah. And we're not teaching people how to have more sex. Hopefully that we've made that abundantly clear. If you want to absolutely go for it, do that. But if you don't want to, you don't have to. But I think we assume that those two words mean, oh, I have lots of sex, and I'm very kinky, and I'm like that to do with each other.

[00:23:25] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.

[00:23:26] Speaker B: I'm on a mission to decouple and demystify these terms.

[00:23:29] Speaker A: Yeah.

[00:23:30] Speaker B: Yeah.

[00:23:31] Speaker A: All right.

[00:23:31] Speaker B: Any. Anything else on the topic? No.

[00:23:33] Speaker A: I feel complete.

[00:23:34] Speaker B: I feel sufficiently like I've gotten the. That off my shoulder. My.

Yeah. Okay, guys. Well, thank you for joining us on this episode. Remember that body count means absolutely nothing to start really getting in tune with what it is you truly want. And actually, next week, we'll be doing a great episode about that, so make sure you join us now. If you're listening on Apple, you can get that episode immediately because it'll be available to you. Now, if you're listening to us on any other platform, including YouTube, it'll be released on Thursday. A couple other things. This show, this podcast is supported by donations, so please do donate to the show. There's a link in the show notes. And as always, for all of our events, our connection Circles groups, please go to gayman'sbrotherhood.com and check out our event section. Hope to see you there. Bye, guys.

[00:24:18] Speaker A: See you, guys.